Catholic Devotion to Mary- My debate with my Protestant Friends

Hello Brothers and Sisters, it is nice to be back here to share my thoughts with you. Before I begin to share my meditations with you. i have decided to share with you today something i found while going down memory lane…This is a debate or argument I got involved in some 2 years ago with my friends.. this happened after i put up a post on facebook. Please enjoy… I have decided to omit the surnames of the people involved.

Chibuzor F. Ogamba:- The hypocrisy of celebrating Christmas without the Mother of God.

Victor:- She isn’t the celebrant.

Chibuzor F. Ogamba:- victor,i can’t remember the celebrant being the only one in the picture at birthdays,if you reason with me,the parents are rightly part of the birthday picture….was there ever a christmas crib or photo without the BABE IN HIS MOTHER’S ARMS???

Chuka:- You have something against non-catholics

Chibuzor F. Ogamba:- chuka,something against non-Catholics??what else but NON-CATHOLICISM,what else,but NON-CHRISTIANITY,what else,but ADULTERATION OF GOSPEL TRUTH,and yet apart from that,not all NON-CATHOLICS are guilty,the sincere ones are doing the right thing,without sentiments……


Chibuzor F. Ogamba:- Ogemdi,thats how you downsize Christianity to the public,this vessel,was not any kind of vessel,was not the kind of vessel that gave you your sinful flesh and blood,this vessel was GOD’s VESSEL,who gave him his IMMACULATE FLESH and BLOOD.This vessel,God himself needed,respected and honoured,this vessel,God loved so dearly,to have raised her to the dignity of calling her MOTHER,Woman,the New Eve,the First Christian,and then also,this vessel,God gave to us,as our spiritual Mother,if i Love Jesus who loves Mary,how much should i love Mary whom Jesus Loves..

Victor:- Ogamba,i dont know why catholics observe unnecessary protocols, mary was just an instrument for the reason of the season.
in the eyes of men mary is the mother of God but in heaven he smiles at us as he has existed before mary.
So why don’t we accord respect to whom respect is due?

Chibuzor F. Ogamba:- hahaha,see how you contradict yourself victor,if she’s the Mother of God only in the eyes of men,then you mean to say Jesus her son is God only in the eyes of men.That is wrong.Jesus is God,and existed before her,She is the daughter of God the Father,and when we say she is the Mother of God,we do not mean she existed before God,but that She gave birth to someone who is God,that’s the meaning of “Mother”. Respect is due to her as well as respect is due to our parents,the saints,and the other holy people of God,especially those who worked hard for your salvation.God honoured her first,the honour of making her his Mother,obeying her,running errands for her,learning from her,and taking flesh and blood from her,staying with her for 30 years of his life on earth.God didn’t do these because she was greater than Him,but because He loved her so much,he loved and continues to Love his Masterpiece,that Woman who is his Ark,The ark of the new covenant in Christ……
If God honoured her and respected her,then if i love God and adore God so much i should respect and honour She whom he has honoured,the bible says,all generations will call Mary blessed for the almighty God has done great things for her.Luke1:.46-48…..Secondly,In the Catholic Church and in our dealings in our relationship with God,and our Lord Jesus Christ,we dont do protocol because its not an office or a court,we do sharing and love because its a family,the family of God’s people,with Christ at its centre. So loving and venerating the Mother of the Family has not taken away but rather increased the Love of the Father…in that whole economy of Love…its all about Love victor,how much do you love Jesus,??then how much should you love his Mother.who he wanted to share with you,by making you partakers in that Divine Heritage,.the Divine sonship.
The Church,the pillar and foundation of Christianity’s truth(1Tim3:15),has meditated on this for over 2000years; and the Holy Spirit has gradually expounded to her the Divine Mysteries,the Mystery of the Inner Life and economy of a God who is Love. That is the Family I belong to,that is the Church I am glad to be a cell of,that is the Catholic Church…the MYSTICAL BODY OF CHRIST.

Victor:- I know there is nothing I can do to convince you here bro but you really need to google some information about the origin of the catholic church….You also need to know why martin luther was threatened when he left you guys but remember not only because of the marriage stuff.
Note the trinity of God:God the father, the son,the holy spirit. god the mother was never included. Since they are what we need when reaching the father,so why then should mary intercede on your behalf when christ is the link.

Chibuzor F. Ogamba:- hmmm,I have studied,its you who havn’t. I have prayed
too.maybe you should try these out.

Victor:- I did ask a question you’ve not answered.

Chibuzor F. Ogamba:- emm,what question is that again??
Christ is the one mediator between God and man,and he stands in need of no other mediator,he is the only mediator.and that is also the central teaching of the catholic church,yet,what christ did on the cross of calvary has enabled each one of us to share in that one mediatorship of christ..that is why we can pray for one another,or go to our priests and pastors to pray for us.WE ALL WHO ARE REDEEMED HAVE BEEN DRAWN INTO CHRIST AND HAVE BEEN MADE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE FATHER.that is why even in romans 15:30, Paul asks people to pray for him to God,but among all the redeemed,Mary stands out as the number one intercessor to her son Jesus,this is because,she was the first to be saved,she had a unique relationship with God which none of us can have to that extent,conceiving GOD IN HER WOMB,GIVING GOD flesh and blood,also,God raised her to that position of mediatrix,as she also participated in the work of suffering that brought about our salvation,she was intimately connected to jesus suffering on the cross and partook in it,…remember simeon’s prophecy in luke 2,he told mary,’a sword shall pierce ur own soul too so that the secrets of many will be laid bare’….and finally she is our mother in the order of grace as she was made so by her son jesus who is GOD.also,another reason why mary stands out is that,she is the holiest creature who evr lived and is now with her son in heaven,the bible says,in james 5,that the prayers of the righteous availeth much,mary is the most righteous of God’s creatures,and so we trust ourselves in her orayers to her son jesus christ who is God. these and many many other reasons are why we pray with and to mary,

Victor:- You need to meditate on these verses okay? matt.11:11, matt 11:27, matt 12:48, john 14:6-7,and john 15:16-17
Let us look at these things from the spiritual aspects.reference to the scriptures Mary wasn’t the first and only to be saved.
So if mary gave birth to Jesus,that means she is an intercessor? Remember It’s you folks that gave the authority
Talking about prayinig for one another,yes it’s normal but mary is dead so its unusual.

Me:- hehe..Victor go and do your homework..

Victor:- Lol..noted.


Author: Chibuzor F. Ogamba

Chibuzor F. Ogamba is a Nigerian Medical Student, Writer, Poet, Blogger, Public Speaker and Catholic Apologist

69 thoughts on “Catholic Devotion to Mary- My debate with my Protestant Friends”

  1. To your fourth question..the answer us simple…it was never an error that Mary's genealogy was not traced by matthew who wrote to a Jewish audience…for the Jews the genealogies are traced patrilinearly and not matrilinearly..and so are the genealogies of many countries and cultures…even the Igbo…my tribe and culture…the genealogies in my culture are never traced from the mother but from the father…that is how it was for the Jews…Matthew was a Jew..and knew exactly how things are done in the Jewish line..he had to prove to them that the person in question was truly of the line of David as the Jewish prophecies revealed..this is why the angel told Joseph to take Mary to be his wife thereby legalizing the union and the citizenship of Jesus…Mary was also of the line of David as St. John Chrysostom a Church Father explains…which shows why Matthew feels confident and more comfortable tracing the line from Joseph..
    and did matthew give us a hint as to the uniqueness of the birth of Jesus,Joseph not taking part?? yes!! precisely at the end of the genealogy when he writes in Matthew 1:16- Jacob was the Father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, AND FROM HER CAME JESUS WHO IS CALLED THE CHRIST-THE MESSIAH…

    finally…for the jews the list xtending to Joseph,the adoptive father of Jesus made sense as this adoption was sufficient for Jesus to be considered,like Joseph,SON OF DAVID


  2. 1) the passage in Ezekiel 44 doesnt suggest childbirth or sexual intercourse. Maybe there are other verses or prophecies in the bible where gates implied “womb”, it would have backed up ur point substantially.

    2) on the issue of calling ourselves “HOLY”…i know some christians who call their pastors or priests “HOLY” it just a title or do they really mean it, since these people are still in the battle.

    3) but u would at least agree with me that Joseph and Mary were spiritually one as a result of marriage. could that be the reason why Joseph had to die “untimely” so marry could be free from the bond of marriage that held them together. and why was Jesus more famous for being the “son of a carpenter” than for being “the son of the wife of a dead carpenter” if your claim that Joseph died at a time where Jesus was probably still tender?


  3. Well..about getting to heaven and reciting the prayer to is really your business…not mine.

    and for her responsibilities when we get to heaven…allow me to get there first and find out…that is the most important thing getting there… but nevertheless we all who have being part of Christ our one mediator would be joined together with Mary and the saints in the constant praise and worship and contemplation of the divine majesty of God and in the knowledge and love of him


  4. About analogies and inferences as you mentioned…those are NOT analogies and is called TYPOLOGY and it involves types and patterns.(see Heb 10:1 and Heb7:1-3 and it is the key to interpreting scripture…it is seeing the old covenant fulfilled in the New and the New latent in the Old…that is the way..the apostles themselves interpreted scripture…types…
    an example is when the writer of Hebrews makes a case for Christ's sacrifice by comparing him to Melchizedek and Abraham sacrificing his Son Isaac etc….the bible is about Covenants, Promise and Fulfillment..
    You could as well challenge the writer of Hebrews that Melchizedek wasnt a TYPE for Christ and Abraham's offering up of his Son Isaac were mere analogies and inferences…

    that said…muslims dont use typology or even the analogies and inferences u speak of…i have had the chance of dialoguing with muslims and know how they lift from scripture but they do not so by interpreting the types in the covenant and fulfilment seen in sacred scripture…they even lift blindly from they do not use typology….they do not even believe all the books of the bible


  5. Yes!!!the Prophet Ezekiel is not speaking about Childbirth or Intercourse…but he is receiving revelations of regulations concerning the Sanctuary…the place where God would dwell…these regulations came from God himself about where he would dwell….and in the fulfilment of the old covenant..God comes to us in Jesus Christ…and “dwells among us” (John1:14) that abode of his dwelling was first and foremost fulfilled in Mary who became the first and primordial fulfilment of God's dwelling place on earth…the fulfilment of the Ark of the Covenant and of the Sanctuary..the First Tabernacle of God on earth…remember Jesus said…that not a word would be be taken out from the Law till all that is said about him would be fulfillled…this is one of those things


  6. for your second question…yes…some people address their pastors and priests as holy …but i do not why they do could ask them to explain to you..

    i can only explain to you why in the Catholic Church the Pope is addressed as “Holy Father”…and the reason is also not far fetched…a distinction must be made between the person who becomes pope and the office of the pope…in addressing the pope as Holy Father..we do not mean that the Pope in himself does not sin or is sinless..(even the Pope goes for confession).No..instead we mean that the office is a holy one divinely constituted and that the Pope is a visible sign of the Fatherhood of Christ in his Church..this is why the Pope is addressed as Holy Father…


  7. yes Joseph and Mary were bonded in the rite of Marriage…that he died for Mary to be free from the bond of Marriage, i do not know…

    Secondly are you kidding me…”Son of the wife of a dead Carpenter”??? thats what you would have expected them to say????? i would like to assume that u are joking…
    even if you werent…Jesus was the son of a carpenter,Joseph..whether he was dead or alive..there is absolutely no question in addressing him as that..even if Joseph was dead or alive…


  8. You raised up something previously which i forgot to answer…i have explained contlessly in this dialogue that Jesus addressing Mary as “Woman” was not in any way a sidelining…it was NEVER.. i mean i wouldnt worship a God who sidelines his Mother… i dont know about was rich in meaning…

    that error of yours comes from reading the bible with the language patterns of today..because when people want to insult or sideline their wives or mothers they use the term 'woman'…too much Africa Magic…

    but the NEW ADAM calling the NEW EVE woman was reminiscent of what happened in Genesis 2:23…After God had formed the woman and brought her to Adam he said…”Now this is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. SHE SHALL BE CALLED WOMAN BECAUSE SHE WAS TAKEN FROM MAN”

    it was also reminiscent of Genesis 3:15 the protoevangelium or first Gospel where God made the first hint of a new covenant in Christ..saying to the serpent “I WILL PUT ENMITY BETWEEN YOU AND THE WOMAN AND BETWEEN YOUR SEED AND HER SEED”.

    It was also prophetic of Rev.12:1- the final battle of the woman and the dragon the ancient serpent…”AND A PORTENT APPEARED IN THE SKY..A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN..WITH THE MOON UNDER HER FEET AND A CROWN OF 12 STARS”

    For Christ and for John, the Word WOMAN is significant…
    Note how Mary is not called Woman everywhere…but only at the places where Jesus mentions his “HOUR” like in John 2 and 19


  9. lol…i wasn't joking. I just wanted to be sure that Jesus was the rightful son of Joseph in your own view.

    okay lets go with your choice of word “typology”, but hope u do get my point. That because you quote an old testament prophecy like that in Ezekiel to refer to Mary's womb and childlessness after the birth of Jesus does not fetch you marks. U just did the very thing you accuse the muslims off – lifting blindly and deliberate misinterpretation of scriptures.

    And permit me to share a summation of our discussion thus far:

    1) Mary “was” the mother of God. She is NOT the mother of God. To be ones mother means to be “before” one. And none is before God…so technically, chronologically or spiritually, it is heresy to call someone the mother of God.

    2) The ark of God/Covenant (the box) has been refurbished (i didnt. want to use abolished) If Jesus said “time will come were we will no longer worship God on a mountain or in Jerusalem but we must worship in Truth and Spirit”, was he not saying symbols and symbolism should be got ridden of and man should serve God directly?

    3) Who's the fulfilment of the ark of Covenant? Mary or Jesus? Or perhaps who's the new ark of covenant?

    4) I dont really have a problem with the pope called Holy, i have a problem with him being called Father, Jesus said call no man “Father” for we all have a common Father which is in heaven. so I was wondering…

    5)So if Joseph was the father of Jesus (who is God), does it make Joseph the father of God?


  10. lol……that is soooo not a summation of our discussion..that is YOUR summation…


    2)THE ARK OF THE COVENANT HAS NOT BEEN REFURBISHED..IT HAS BEEN FULFILLED IN NO OTHER BUT MARY…THE REASON IS NOT FAR-FETCHED…A good study of The Ark of the Covenant would reveal that it was a box made by the israelites at God's command to be A PLACE WHERE HE WOULD DWELL….not to be God himself…infact..from Hebrews 9:4 we are clearly told that the ark contained:-
    1) A Golden jar holding the MANNA
    2)AARON'S ROD that had sprouted leaves

    these three things were types for Christ…Viz

    1)The MANNA-Bread from heaven was a type of Jesus as the true Bread from heaven…the Bread of Life(John 6:35,48-51)
    2)AARON'S STAFF- a symbol of the high priesthood of the old covenant…was a type for Christ..the eternal high priest of the New covenant…
    3)SLABS OF STONE BEARING THE COMMANDMENTS- the word of God to his people…a type for Christ the new and final word God has spoken (John1:1-4)

    These three things stood for Christ..and not the Ark itself…these three things were rather placed in the Ark…and the ark bore them…it is therefore clear that whoever bore Christ in the New Covenant is the Ark of the New Covenant..and that is no other but Mary…Luke knew this and that is why he draws a lot of parallels and uses the same words used for the Ark in the Old testament to introduce us to the person of Mary in the New Testament.(Compare 2Samuel 6 to Luke 1)

    Nowhere does JESUS say that symbolism and symbols has been gotten rid of…no where..our worshiping him in spirit and in truth has NOTHING…completely NOTHING to do with symbolism and symbols…if it does..why does the writer of Hebrews still use symbolism and symbols throughout his letter????and when i say throughout i mean throughout.

    4)Emmanuel…”call no man Father” does not literally mean that we should not call people Father.especially those who really are our Fathers .by that what do you call your Dad????

    In Exodus 20 the commandment says “Honour your FATHER and your Mother”
    In Matthew 19…Jesus repeats the same thing to the rich man “HONOUR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER” If Jesus really meant we shouldnt call them Father why does he still use the word 5 chapters before in Matthew to teach the rich Man..

    finally..listen to what PAUL has to say in 1Cor. 4:15-“For though you have countless guides in Christ you do not have many Fathers. For I BECAME YOUR FATHER in Christ JESUS through the Gospel.” that is precisely what the Pope and Our Priests are to us


  11. as regards not calling someone Father, you said the obvious thing any christian even non-catholics would say. what they fail to do is shed light on what Jesus really meant. And in fact, Jesus was speaking in religious terms (so it's quite clear that he wasnt against calling ur dad father). if u differ, u may kindly educate me on what Jesus meant, not what he didnt mean. And it's quite funny when u tell ppl what Jesus said, they bring up what Moses or Paul said to counter it. Paul that admitted he has flaws, Moses too. And same applies to The Churches (orthodox, protestant and all the others). bunch of erroneous ppl. does it surprise u that only 2 churches out of 7 in Rev 2 and 3 had a pass mark from God? And every kind of church or christian u see today is well represented among the 7. and this is why i avoided naming churches or tagging to one. i have a personal conviction for what i believe or not and it's not what the pastor or pope says or what the church says. but what Jesus God's Word says. He says I am the Way, Truth and Life. So if Jesus is the content of the ark, then Mary isnt the ark (she's one of the arks though). We are the the ark, the body and His temple. because Jesus isnt in the womb anymore. If I were to teach about Mary, I would give her all the regard she deserves…just like the bible portrayed and catholics teach but it all ends for me at the subject of devotion or titles. Thats where it's no different from ppl consulting their dead ancestors and speaking to them. I asked if Mary could talk back just like the Holy Spirit. No one is saying that the host of saints in heaven do not intercede on our behalf, even the angels do but were we not warned not to “consult” angels (vain humility). and Jesus said in heaven, we'll be like angels…then Mary is like an angel in heaven, interceding for us, but do we need to remind her? everyday? (avoid vain repetition in ur prayers like the heathens do). So my dear brother, forget what the church says, there's barely a perfect church with a perfect doctrine and these little things are things that bring the imperfection (avoid the vain geneologies of men), like u rightly said, lack of devotion to Mary wouldnt hamper my heavenly race, so why run with an extra load of religious ceremony, praying to a fellow human, praying for d dead, wearing religious beads, doing recitals, going on pilgrimages, Christmas and Easter and d likes if these things dont count for my making heaven? i rmbr the oly thing Jesus enacted was to take The Supper and Service to one another in remembrance of Him. Anyways, thats why the Holy Spirit came, to teach us. Meaning I dont have to read write-ups from so called Saints i dont know when i could simply ask the Holy Spirit my Comforter for answers.


  12. if there is anything erroneous at all it is what you have said…if there is any belief worth is that which you have tendered…. religion and the worship of God does not involve me picking and choosing what suits me or what i feel is right….

    i will address as much as i can the things you have just said…

    first…when Jesus said in Matthew 23:9 that neither should anyone be called father…i would like to point out to you that Jesus was not just speaking in religious terms…first from the fact that he says ANYONE. he did not zero it down to those in church…he not only even says Father but also Master and Leader …what he is clearly saying is that no form of Fatherhood or Leadership or Mastering should overshadow or eclipse the only Father,the only Leader and only Master of all..the danger of personality and regard comes when one begins to feel himself over and above all else forgetting that he himself is also a Son, a slave and a follower of the only Father like everyone else.

    There is never a contradiction in the Bible…what i have done is not to show you a contrary opinion because the Bible never contradicts itself.. the entire bible is the word of God and not only Matthew,Mark, Luke and John…and so any interpretation of the Bible that make the sacred writers contradict themselves is FALSE..God does not lie….And so the task of anyone interpreting scripture guided by the Holy Spirit is to check to see if his so called interpretation is unanimous throughout scripture…for the bible speaks as with one voice…for it is the one God who speaks through all its pages.. Even if Paul and Moses had flaws…the Divine Inspiration of the Bible guarantees that none of those flaws entered into the Word of God which they proclaimed to us whether by their word of mouth or by their letter because when they spoke it was Christ who spoke… In Luke 10:16 Jesus tells his Apostles-“Whoever hears you hears me..whoever despiseth you despiseth me”…

    Which brings me to my real point Emmanuel…Jesus did not leave us to individually search the scriptures with some hypothetical Holy Spirit helping us to understand all of its parts NO..HE LEFT US WITH A CHURCH!!! That Church he founded on Peter..(see Matt.16:18) the foundation of that Church was the Apostles to whom he had guaranteed would never teach error because whatever they taught it would be him who taught….(Luke10:16)..that church was not just to be a collection of people but also a TEACHING church..for when he was about to leave them he commissioned the Apostles saying to them “Go and TEACH all nations” Matt.28:20…not only that my friend that Church as Paul described is the “Pillar and Foundation of the Truth”..(1Tim3:15-16)…
    It is that Church that the Holy Spirit came upon and remained and taught and acted till this very day…any holy spirit different from that in the Church is fake and demonic…any holy spirit that teaches what the church did not teach is from the devil..St. John would say this in his epistle…that those who left did so because they were not part in the first place…
    that Church subsists in the Catholic Church….and serves as God's guarantor of Truth from where God teaches his truth to his people and guides and guarantees them of their eternal salvation…


  13. if you would hear Jesus, Mr. Emmanuel ,then you would hear the Church he has set up to teach you..not your private interpretations of scripture and private convictions which you attribute to a certain holy spirit…

    then look at your statement…..”mary is not the ark(she's one of the arks though).” how inconsistent…how untruthful…after you have clearly seen from scripture that scripture portrays her and her alone as such..what scares you from accepting the truth as revealed in the bible…
    we are called to be Arks Mary the first and biblical Ark of the Covenant..and that is why Mary serves as a type ,a model, and a figure of the Church..the people of God called to bear Christ to the world the way his Mother Mary did….

    and yes Mary and the saints could at the will of God talk back to us..and she has done so..countless times…an example is at Fatima, event which you made mention of our prayer she guides us in finding our way to her son..and to full knowledge of his will for us …thats her role of motherhood in our lives…”Do whatever he tells you”(John2:5) is her teaching to us….and that is precisely what we do under her tutelage..
    You ask “do we need to remind her?” how funny…you can like to ask if we need to pray …..the church is about communion and not about petitions and granting of petitions ..there is NO COMMUNION WITH GOD THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE COMMUNION WITH HIS PEOPLE. the earlier you know that the better for you…and Mary is one of such people ..a very important one of them…at her feet i have learnt so much about my life and my mission in the Kingdom of her feet i have learnt so much of the virtues God was pleased to endow her with…and i am trying with the help of her intercession to apply it to my life…yes..


  14. dead ancestors you say..those ancestors might be dead but the saints are alive..precisely more alive than you and me..because they are alive in Christ…My God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…He is not the GOD of the dead but of the Living(Matt.22:32).

    vain repetitions???? i am sure you want to quote Matt.6:7…and you do so quite ignorantly and from a not so accurate translation of the bible…the Greek word used there is me battologe se te which means “babble” or “empty phrases” and not repetitions…the bible is full of repetitions…Psalm 136 is an example..Jesus himself uses repetitions in his prayer (see Matt. 26:44; Mark 14:39)
    and what repetition is vain…but that which is addressed to no one..but that which is senseless….no prayer to the living saints in heaven or to Mary is vain…

    and finally go back and read my response to the question u asked about devotion to mary not affecting salvation and dont misquote me next time…

    it is good on the other hand for you to note that i want to know God and his kingdom ..everything about it and everything about him ..i want to be involved in all the protocols and with all the people in it…because it is the family i am now part of as his son….i will not settle for the minimal thing i can do that would not hamper my salvation…i will not be comfortable till i have all of him and not part…till i am fully part of his family..till his Mother becomes my Mother..till his angels become my angels..till i become a member of his family fellowshipping with all other members..then i would have seen him fully…for he clearly lives in the communion of his saints…so yes..i need loads of religious ceremonies…what else would i be doing in heaven than religious ceremonies…i need to commune my fellow humans who are closer to God than i am..for their prayers availeth much..i need to pray for the dead in purgatory for they need my prayers…nothing but fellowship and love obliges me to…i need to not just wear religious beads but clasp my fingers around them as i pray the Bible…i need a lot of recitals as i learn from great spiritual masters and form my own interior life with words i can remember without having to think or without having to concoct words in time…i need to go on pilgrimages..spiritual journeys that rejuvenate my faith and challenge my zeal…i need christmas and easter celebrating what Joys the Lord has wrought for me in his Son…..Jesus enacted all of these for me..and for you…i enjoy it..and so would you.

    the Holy Spirit has taught me all that i have told you….and he has done so in a way and through a means which leaves me a better guarantee than you…and that way is through the Church Christ founded..the one holy Catholic and apostolic church..

    i dont need you to agree with me..i have embarked on his argument with you for the sake of not just you but also for all those who would read this…that they may truly know what burns like a fire in the faith and heart of a young Catholic…thanks for offering your thoughts…


  15. lol…you sound pissed. If this were those days, wouldnt i be burnt at the stakes for heresy? But u should know that there are quite a lot of things I've learnt from this conversation and i also want to be a perfect Christian too, that's why i avoid mixing traditions of men with my worship to God. Sorry to stretch you tirelessly. Purgatory, another one of those topics. I'd love to learn more about it. If u have the time, do shed more light on it coz all i know about it is a place were dead folks (not so sure if they are sinners) are counting on the prayers of the living to get a life-line to get to heaven. U keep saying the Church subsists as the Catholic church, i'd like to ask how and what u mean?


  16. nah..pissed is far from it Emmanuel….and maybe there was a time in history when you might have been burnt for heresy..though when i think about it….i dont think anybody was burnt just because the person held to a different belief…one thing i am sure of is that you may have been excommunicated…

    well..if you say you have learnt a lot from this conversation..good for you…

    as for mixing traditions of men…you know many people say that when in fact they actually do mix traditions of men with their worship of God..good to know you try…

    the only problem is how are you going to be sure of the difference between “traditions of men”…and the “traditions of the apostles” which sprang from the true worship of God(2Thess2:15).. hope you would be able to recognize them when you see them.

    as for stretching me..the only thing i would have wished for is for the conversation to be done by talking..but when i thought about the fact that others would also learn from it..i feel its okay..

    concerning purgatory its a very very interesting and biblical topic..which has a lot of misconceptions…an example of the misconceptions about purgatory is the one you set down in your previous comment…i have started to write my meditations on purgatory on my blog…the first part is there already…the other parts are u can read the first part there on you can also read some of these things to get your answers on or on or on .there are very wonderful resources for the many questions you ask there….thank you once again


  17. okay. i might visit those online resources but the truth is i learn better in discussions as i may have questions i need to clarify firsthand. i hope i'm not stressing u out. i still would like to know what u mean by the church subsisting as the catholic church?


  18. By that i mean that –
    1) Christ Jesus when he came down to save mankind established or founded a kingdom on earth…a people who were redeemed by his blood…a kahal , an ecclesia…a Church. This Church was to be a visible sign of his ever redeeming and sanctifying presence and action in creation.

    2) This Church he founded beginning with weak and fragile men whom he called together and named Apostles of which one he made his vicar..the rock on which his Church was to be built…Peter..he named him…later he called disciples to himself and charged the Apostles to make more disciples bringing others into this Kingdom…the Church..

    3)He created the Church and finally sanctified through the cross ..his resurrection and ascension and the descent of the Holy Spirit…and charged that Church..his mystical body… for mission…

    4)That Church is his body..and he is the head…the Holy Spirit being her very soul..
    -that church is meant to be the very fact that it is a BODY
    -that Church is his sacrament ..his means for evangelization and salvation (Eph.3:10)
    -that Church is meant to teach nations (Matt.28:20) and whatever the Church says Christ has said(Luke 10:16)
    -that Church is meant to Sanctify peoples(John 20:21-23;etc)
    -that Church is meant to be judge of souls(Matt.18:15-17).
    – that Church is meant is meant to be the pillar and bulwark of truth(1Tim.3:15-16).
    -that church is meant to have a visible unity in both faith, baptism ,doctrine(1Cor.1:10).

    5) The fullness of that Church which Jesus founded…lies in no where else but the Catholic Church..descended directly from the Apostles and their disciples and which has the visible line of apostolic succession throughout the ages.


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